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Blog Posts by CircarExpress
Page#    2974 Blog Entries  <<prev  next>>
General Travel
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4

Jun 13 2021 (23:14)   HSA/Hasimara (2 PFs)
Harsh12345ER~   21389 blog posts
Entry# 4984885            Tags   Past Edits
can Railway make Line from Hasimara to Jaigaon(border town of Alipurduar district)
this line if made can be extended to Bhutan
Is the terrain suitable for Railway line?
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2 Public Posts - Sun Jun 13, 2021

2 Public Posts - Mon Jun 14, 2021

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1

Jun 14 2021 (03:13)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4984885-5              
There used to be an MG line from Hasimara to Dalsingpara that was abandoned sometime in the 1950s after the construction of the Assam Rail link. (Dalsingpara is roughly at the mid point between Hasimara and Jaygaon). It was abandoned as there was no economic potential for the short branch line.

As far as a railway line to Bhutan is concerned - Bhutan is a hilly country requiring massive amounts of money for the construction of a railway. Economically, it doesn't make sense.
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6 Public Posts - Mon Jun 14, 2021

2 Public Posts - Tue Jun 15, 2021
3 Followers
General Travel
121509 views
12

★★
Jun 04 2021 (10:15)   12311/Netaji Express (PT) | HWH/Howrah Junction (23 PFs)
Vinay Kumar
Vinay Kumar   23030 blog posts
Entry# 4976798            Tags   Past Edits
1861 Pic 9: EIR 1/2 Mail Clearly Marked & hence oldest Running Train. HWH-BWN-Raniganj
Pic 2/3: GIPR: Mixed Service. Bombay-KSRA, Thul Ghat Convey, IGP-CSN * Bombay-Tillowlee, Bhore Ghat Convey, KAD-Pune/SUR
Pic 4: BB&CI: Mixed Service BL-AKV, Horse/Carriage, BH-BRC
Pic 6: Madras Railway: 1,2,3 Passenger MAS-Tripatoor. MAS DEP/ARR: 1861 6:15/20:31 MAQ Mail 20:20/5:40. With opposite schedule it cant be forerunner of MAQ Mail. 1861/1868 Pass
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MAS DEP MAS @ 6:15/05:00 Malabar 1935 DEP 20:05. Malabar Exp & MAQ Mail together cant be successor of 1,2,3 Pass with opposite schedule (No M/E in MAS-MAQ till 1868 & i guess not before 1907. Till 1955 none 1/2 MAQ Mail click here but show up in 1960 click here Its oldest named train which still exist & 1/2 Mail existed in 1861 with Night/Morning HWH DEP/ARR like Kalka Mail!!

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2 Public Posts - Fri Jun 04, 2021

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1

Jun 04 2021 (14:24)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-6              
Sir, a few things to note here -

Mails as 'premium' trains were not a concept until the late 1880s. The first ''fast' mail train was only introduced in 1889 as a special train.

The
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typical style of operations was to have one train running the entire length of the route and carry mails. So these trains that you are calling 'passengers' because they are stopping everywhere, were the 'mail trains' then.

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1

Jun 04 2021 (14:40)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-7              
Quoting your post from the other thread - "MAS-Beypore run dated 1868 shows Beypore train depart 5 PM, stops at every station like Passenger & so does other trains to CBE/SBC (these were no Mail which always got limited stops)"

As I said earlier, the traffic back then was too low, so the trains that carried the mail also stopped everywhere.

Attached
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is a timetable from 1868 of the East Indian Railway from Howrah to Delhi - Notice that there are two trains running from Howrah to Delhi and both of them stop at ALL stations between Teenpahar and Delhi.

If the Beypore train cannot be considered as predecessor to Mangalore mail as it stops at all stations, and if the Bombay - Ahmedabad train from 1864 can't be considered as predecessor to the Gujarat mail, then the Howrah Delhi trains from 1868 cannot be considered as predecessors to the Kalka mail as they too stopped at all stations.

Notice that the Beypore train also skipped some stations between Madras and Jalarpet, like how the Howrah Delhi trains skipped some stations between Howrah and Teenpahar.

Also notice the train on the Allahabad - Jabalpur route. It ran in connection with the Howrah Delhi train reaching Allahabad at around 3 in the morning. It was not a separate train to Jabalpur from Howrah. It probably had through carriages from Howrah.

This same arrangement continued after the complete opening of the line from
Bombay to Howrah for many years. There was one mail train from Bombay to Jabalpur (operated by GIP railway), passengers changed to the EIR train at Jabalpur and the through carriages were attached to the train coming from Delhi at Allahabad and thus proceeded to Howrah.

You can see in the 1895 timetable I shared earlier, that there was only one mail train between Howrah and Burdwan in 1895. If the Kalka mail and Bombay mail were separate trains by then, there should have been two mails in the timetable, not one.

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1

Jun 04 2021 (15:02)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-8               Past Edits
"MAS-MAQ: 1907 Malabar. MAS-Beypore/SBC: 1868 Pass not Mail [29/30 in 1944 TT not 1/2. You may change name but Number]

It was NOT named 'Malabar express' in 1907.
Attached is a scan of the 1918 TT -
The
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Mangalore mail is numbered 10 Dn on the Madras - Podanur section. (MSMR) This reached Podanur at 8:18 AM in the morning and departed
from Podanur at 8:55 AM as the 12 Dn SIR mail. A portion of the train ran to Mettupalayam and departed from Podanur at 8:48AM.

The Malabar express was a faster version of the Mangalore mail introduced in 1929 ( Like how the faster P&O express was regularized as Frontier mail).
The name 'Malabar express' was lost shortly after 1951 when the Calicut- Ernakulam train was introduced. Thereafter the train was renamed as Managlore express and later as Mangalore mail again.

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3

Jun 04 2021 (15:19)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-9              
"You may change name but Number]"

There was no such rule, sir. Different railway companies followed different numbering schemes.

Even after independence, before introduction of the 4 digit numbering, trains often had
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different numbers on different zones. (This was standardized in the 1960s).

Punjab mail was 5/6 in CR and 37/38 in NR. Pathankot express (present day 11057/58) was 197/198 on CR and 57/58 on NR.

Similarly, before independence too trains changed numbers on different railway networks. Punjab mail was 5/6 on GIPR and 3/4 on NWR (85/86 in later years).
Attached are timetables from 1918 for the Amritsar-Delhi and Delhi- Bombay routes. Note the 4 Bombay mail on the Amritsar section and 6 Punjab mail on the Delhi-Bombay section. Trains often had different numbers and names on railway operated by different companies. Only some trains (like the Frontier mail) had the same name throughout their routes.

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1

Jun 04 2021 (15:29)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-10              
"29/30 in 1944 TT not 1/2"

Attached is a scan from the 1944 Bradshaw -
Notice Malabar express is numbered "13/14" and Blue Mountain express is numbered 45/50. (No, this is not an error, it was indeed numbered like this. You can confirm this through the IRFCA forums as well).
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29/30 is the number of a different train introduced between Calicut and Ernakulam that was renamed as 'Malabar express'.

In 1955 TT (from IRFCA - click here )
Blue Mountain is renamed as Nilagiri express and renumbered as 545/546. Malabar express is renamed as Mangalore express and is renumbered as 513/514. Also observe the Madras Cochin express numbered 561/562.

In 1961 SR TT, 513/514 Mangalore express is renumbered as 1/2 Mangalore mail, 545/546 Nilagiri is renumbered as 5/6 mail and 561/562 Cochin express is renumbered as 19/20 Cochin express.

So yes, both names and numbers of may trains were changed quite frequently back then.

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4 Public Posts - Fri Jun 04, 2021

2 Public Posts - Sat Jun 05, 2021

3461 views
1

Jun 05 2021 (13:39)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-17              
"1861: 1/2 Mail marked in TT, HWH DEP/ARR sync to Kalka Mail & dont stop at every station with 58 KMPH in 1867"

It is not marked 1/2. Trains did not have numbers in that year. It had 1 & 2 classes.

"1868:
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1,2,3 Class MAS-Beypore Pass (3rd Class in SA-Beypore). Been Not Standalone Pass, use to taxi 1,2,3 Class MAS-SBC till JTJ!!"

It meant 3rd class booking from Madras was only allowed to stations between Salem and Beypore. This was because the train carried through carriages to Bangalore and did not have sufficient 3rd class capacity between MAS and JTJ. The Shevaroy hills section between JTJ and Salem was graded and rake length of trains was restricted. So 3rd class capacity was limited till Salem.

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0

Jun 05 2021 (13:46)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-18               Past Edits
Play your Malabar/MAQ Mail game without deliberately screwing Kalka Mail Historical Fact as 1/2 Mail since 1861

Let me make my statement very clear. I said, that there was a mail service between Calcutta and Delhi since 1867, and Kalka mail and Bombay mail split into separate services later in 1897. Now how is that dilution or degradation - may be you might explain better.
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I didn't degrade Kalka mail in any way, nor will I gain anything out of it.

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Jun 05 2021 (13:52)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-19              
You are comfortably ignoring things that do not fit into your story and calling out on others.

I shared the 1868 TT which showed the Calcutta Delhi train stopping at EVERY STATION between Teenpahar and Delhi - that is 93 stops over ~820 miles of journey. Is that not a passenger?

1868
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Beypore train - Skipping Cudumbathoor, Chinnampet, Sholingur, MAilputty and Theruvellum between Madras and Ambur, halting at every station after that till Beypore

1868 Calcutta Delhi train - Skipping some stations between Howrah and Teenpahar, stopping at every station afterwards.

Both trains have similar ways of operation - limited halts for one section and stopping at every halt on the other section.

I don't understand, why you are saying only the Beypore train is a pass, but the Delhi train is not one? Stopping at every station in 800 miles is not a passenger?

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0

Jun 05 2021 (14:06)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-20              
"Since 1960 1 Mail. 1861 Mail & 1867 Chord/Loop Mail are enough to discriminate between Pass & Mail & you struggle to show 1907 MAS-MAQ connection!!"

How are they enough? 1868 chord/loop train is halting at every train station between Teenpahar and Delhi - How is that differentiating between mail and pass?
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0

Jun 05 2021 (14:09)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-21              
"Hold on. 10 Mail primarily connects MAS-MTP in 1918. 12 Mail is PTJ-MAQ Mail, got Slip from 10 Mail at PTJ!!"

The mail primarily ran from MAS to Mangalore. The change of number at Podanur was because it was taken over by the SIR at Podanur.

I
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have already shared other timetables and examples showing that trains changed numbers and (even names) when going from one railway company to the other. It's the same here.

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0

Jun 05 2021 (14:11)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-22              
"You gave example of Punjab Mail having different number in NR/CR (its to avoid any Number Clash with EIR Train at NR). But still its name & number remain unique in CR/NR."

It did not. I've already mentioned in my post that Punjab mail had 3/4 on NWR in the 1910s and it was changed to 85/86 later.
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0

Jun 05 2021 (14:22)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-23              
"Passenger show up in MAS-Beypore in 1968 & you latch prestige over correct info just coz its your screen??"

Thanks for your deep insight into my nature. Very professional of you to pass judgement on others without putting a fraction of the effort they put in.

We
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(this isn't my research alone - many veteran IRFCA members did this over the years) took the efforts to do the research, understand the method of railway operations in the 18th century - understand how the railway companies operated and what changes they made over the years.

We took the efforts to find and study newspaper articles from the 1800s and figure out the exact changes.

We worked with veteran railfans from across the world who made a painstaking effort to collect timetables from the 1800s and 1900s and whatever I updated, I did it only after I got the necessary verification from everyone.

I didn't make updates to these pages after sitting at home and searching on google for a few hours.

When I first joined IRI, even I used to say that the Bangalore mail was the oldest and the Kalka mail the second oldest - like the IRFCA FAQ page said.
/blog/post/1840655 /blog/post/1873224 /blog/post/2032695
I changed my opinion because I did the necessary research - not because I felt some prestige. I am neither from Madras nor from Mangalore. I don't have any agenda in doing this. I

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1 Public Posts - Sat Jun 05, 2021

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1

Jun 05 2021 (14:35)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-25              
"why IR will term Passenger Service as Mail"

Because there was no IR at that time. There was no IR till 1947, no railway zones till 1951. Before that different companies operated the railways and each of them ran their railways in the way they saw fit.

You
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keep talking about mail/exp and passenger - have you done any research into what the type of trains were in the 1800s in each of the railway company? Just because EIR marked some train as mail, doesn't mean that every company had the same method.

Attached are records of the Madras postal department from 1864 - Note that they are carrying mail by multiple trains every day - not just one train. The trains that you keep calling 'pass' also carried mail. In fact, not just one train, but three trains carried mail from Madras - perhaps all of them should be called mails - The Tripatoor 'pass' from 1861 that you were talking about - that also carried mail.

The concept of fast, priority mail trains only came up in the 1880s, when they started speeding up existing trains by removing halts and making the 'mail' a prestigious term. Before that, any train that carried mail was called a mail train on most railways.

Also note that they did not have overnight trains in 1864 in Madras. The mail train stopped at Coimbatore (now Podanur) in the evening and continued the journey next morning. Before you jump to the conclusion that these are separate trains - attached is a record of the medical department of the Madras railway on Coimbatore (now Podanur station) from 1865 - they mention that the trains from the east and the west remain in the night at Coimbatore and continue the journey the next day.

And as for why the timings changed - 160 years have happened since these trains have started running. Is it realistic to think that trains will run with the same schedule and timings and numbers for 160 years? Lot of changes happen. The Calcutta - Delhi train in 1868 was taking close to three days for the journey, compared to 25 hours now - so should I say that they are different trains.

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1 Public Posts - Sat Jun 05, 2021

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Jun 05 2021 (14:57)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-27              
And just to make it clear that I don't have anything against the Kalka mail or any 'prestige' - I made a serious attempt to get the history of these trains when I could not find any inaugural notifications in any newspapers of that era that I could find.

I contacted ER's office after they did the 150 year celebrations for Kalka mail in 2016 with an RTI request asking them to share any documents they had about the official notification - but I got a reply stating that the office did
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not have any documents about it. They just shared the newspaper article that was published on that day again. (the write up was given to the CPRO by railfans - some who used to be on this site, from what I gather - it wasn't based on official records)

click here - RTI reply

I have no bias against any train or any bias for a train - I did whatever I could do to find the details and I only share the information when I am confident that I understood the chronology.

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1

Jun 05 2021 (15:12)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976798-29               Past Edits
"29 Dec 1866 Departing HWH-Delhi Mail arrived Delhi with 17 Coach (Full Construct with Evening DEP)"

When the Howrah - Delhi train is stopping at every station between Teenpahar and Delhi - why do you call it a 'mail'? Just ignoring this part?

Second
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thing - where did you get the data that the train that reached Delhi on the night of December 31, 1866 was from Howrah? The article I shared didn't mention the origin of the train - can you share any proof that it was from Howrah? Or should I just take your word for it?

"1935: 10 Mail named Nilgiri. MAS-MAQ New Service as Malabar Exp" - Where did you get this? The name Niligiri came after independence. It was called Blue Mountain before Independence and it was started in 1929, not 1935.
10 mail was a combined train to MTP and MAQ - the train split at PTJ and SIR took over the train there and ran it with a different number to MAQ - It is similar to the HYB/TPTY - VSG train today. In 1929, they just separated both portions into independent trains. Attached is a scan with the inaugural date of the Blue Mountain express.

The split was done to facilitate the running of the Grand Trunk express which ran with the Malabar express between Mangalore and Madras before continuing to Peshawar.

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7 Public Posts - Sat Jun 05, 2021

6 Public Posts - Sun Jun 06, 2021

1 Public Posts - Mon Jun 07, 2021

2 Public Posts - Tue Jun 22, 2021

5 Public Posts - Wed Jun 23, 2021

2 Public Posts - Sat Oct 16, 2021
5 Followers
General Travel
329518 views
20

★★★
May 31 2021 (20:29)   12137/Punjab Mail (PT) | CSMT/Mumbai CSM Terminus (18 PFs)
guest
Entry# 4974195            Tags   Past Edits
Presenting History Of My Most Favourite Train

The oldest running long-distance train of the Indian Railways, Punjab Mail, connecting Mumbai-Firozpur - originally linking Bombay with Peshawar (now in Pakistan) - turns 110 on Tuesday, Central Railway officials said here on Monday.
The Punjab Limited as she was called then, is a little over 16 years older than its more glamorous counterpart Frontier Mail,
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though its origins are rather vague.

She steamed out of Bombay's Ballard Pier Mole station - which was the hub of the erstwhile Great Indian Peninsular Railways (GIPR), that later became the CR.
Based on a Cost Estimate paper of 1911 and a complaint by an irate passenger in Oct. 2012 about "the later arrival of the train by a few minutes at Delhi" station, the CR concluded that the Punjab Mail made her maiden run on June 1, 1912.
To begin with, there were the P&O steamers bringing in the mail, and excited officers of the British Raj along with their spouses, coming to their first postings in colonial India after a 13-day long sea voyage from Southampton to Mumbai Port.
Since the British officials held a combined ticket both for the sea voyage to Bombay and then onward inland journey by train to their place of postings, after disembarking they would simply board one of the trains from here bound for Delhi, Calcutta or Madras.

The Punjab Limited used to run on fixed mail days from Bombay to Peshawar covering 2,496 kms in around 47 hours along the Great Indian Peninsular route, via Itarsi, Agra, Delhi and Lahore.
At that time, it had only 3 passenger cars with a total capacity of 96 travellers, three for postal goods and mail, and was the fastest running train in the British India.
The passenger coaches were all corridor cars in first class, dual berth compartments, and well appointed with lavatories, bathrooms, a restaurant car, a compartment for the luggage and servants of the British officers.
Later, from 1914, the Punjab Limited started originating and terminating at the Bombay VT Station, now Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Terminus Mumbai and a UNESCO World Heritage site.
Today, the journey time of Punjab Mail, hauled by electric engines, has come down significantly, covering the 1,930 kms between Mumbai CSMT-Firozpur Cantt in 34 hrs 15 mins.
Compared to the original 6 cars of the Punjab Limited, Punjab Mail now has 9 air-conditioned coaches, 6 sleeper coaches, 5 general second class coaches, a pantry and a generator van.
By mid-1930s, it also started catering to the Indians on the move in Third class cars, it got the first airconditioned coach in 1945 , from May 1976, it was hauled by diesel engines, and by 1980s with electric engines as a large part of the trunk routes on the IR network got electrified.
From December 2020, the Punjab Mail started its journey with the German-designed Alstom LHB GmbH's Linke Hofmann Busch (LHB) coaches which give more safety and a pleasant travel experience to the passengers.

Source - click here

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17 Public Posts - Mon May 31, 2021

2 Public Posts - Tue Jun 01, 2021

1 Public Posts - Wed Jun 02, 2021

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2

Jun 02 2021 (04:55)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-22              
@4974195-0  @guest
A lot of misconceptions here and many incorrect details. Unfortunately, when it comes to railway history, IR tends to just quote random stuff without research.

The true details are as below. This has been compiled over many years by me and several veteran IRFCA members.

Several
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of these dates and stories have been lifted from IRFCA posts from back in the day when there wasn't enough research material available about them. Since then new details have come up and these are being updated on the site and Wikipedia as and when possible.

You can also refer to the Wikipedia articles for these historical trains that we have been updating over the past few months -
Punjab mail - click here
Imperial Indian Mail - click here

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10810 views
3

Jun 02 2021 (05:06)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-23              
@4974195-0  @guest
To correct some of the inaccuracies here -
1) The Punjab Limited and the Punjab mail are unrelated trains. The Punjab Limited was a postal special train that started operating from 27th October, 1927 in competition with the BB&CIRs P.O Express. It operated only for a few months before being cancelled.

2) The Punjab mail as we know it today, started operating
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from 15th March, 1905. I've attached a newspaper article with the train's inauguration announcement. It ran to Peshawar only for a few years - between 1912 and 1928. Even during that time, it ran combined with other trains between LAhore and Peshawar. From 1928, it started terminating at Lahore only.


3) There is nothing significant about the June 1st, 1912 date. It is a date that is just repeated in all these articles without verification.

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3

Jun 02 2021 (05:09)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-24              
Kalka mail did not start operations in 1866 (The Jamuna bridge at Delhi was opened on 1st January, 1867 , so no through trains were possible before that). The 150 years celebrations were done by railfans (some of them on this site) and the officials just played along. When I submitted an RTI request about it, ER did not have any official documents.
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3

Jun 02 2021 (05:15)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-25              
However, through extensive research and a lot of help from many people with old Bradshaws and surfing through old newspapers, we managed to identify the history of most of the famous trains. The dates are as below -

1) Madras - Mangalore mail - Started as Madras - Beypore mail from 5th May, 1862. Was gradually extended to Calicut in 1888 and later to Mangalore in 1908. This is by far the oldest, still operational train in IR.
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2) Gujarat mail - Started as the Bombay - Ahmedabad mail on December 26th, 1864.

3) Madras - Bombay mail - Started operating from 1st January, 1872.

4) Howrah - Bombay mail via Nagpur - October 1st, 1893.

5) Howrah - Madras mail - Exact date unknown, but started in December 1900.

6) Imperial Indian mail - This was a postal special train that operated between Ballard Pier and Howrah and started operating from November 1926. This train is NOT related to the 12321/22 HWH - CSMT mail. Both were independent trains. Refer to the Wikipedia entry for more details ( updated by me).

I can share the relevant timetables and newspaper scans if people are interested.

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4

Jun 02 2021 (05:23)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-26              
Kalka mail and the HWH-CSTM mail via JBP have a complicated history.

In 1867, there were through coaches running from Howrah to Delhi through 2-3 separate trains (HWH - MGS by the mail train, MGS - ALD by another train and ALD to DLI by another train).

In
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1870, the CSTM- ALD route was opened throughout. At this point, the GIP started running a main train between Bombay and Jabalpur (where their jurisdiction ended). Here, passengers transferred to another train belonging to the EIR, which ran to Allahabad. At Allahabad, the Bombay coaches and the coaches coming from Delhi were merged into a single train called the Chord mail (as it went through the Sitarampur Chord line).

I've attached a timetable from 1895, showing the chord line mail between Howrah and Asansol (marked as 1 Chord mail).

In 1897, due to increasing traffic, the Chord line mail was split into two individual mail trains - the Punjab mail to Delhi and Lahore (This is the predecessor of the Kalka mail of today) and the Howrah - Bombay mail via Jabalpur.

So, the Kalka mail has been in operation in some form or the other since 1867, but as we know it today i.e., a standalone train from Calcutta, it started in 1897.

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7 Public Posts - Wed Jun 02, 2021

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5

Jun 02 2021 (11:49)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-34              
1) Imperial mail and the 12321/12322 HWH CSTM mail are DIFFERENT trains. Do not confuse between them. Imperial mail started in November, 1926 as a postal special - Yes, it carried passengers too - but the main objective was to convey the English mail to Calcutta and further to Rangoon.

The railways operated postal specials with 1st class passenger accomodation between Bombay-MAdras, Bombay-Delhi-LAhore/Simla/Peshawar and Bomaby-Calcutta at least since 1898. The first such train ran between Bombay and Calcutta in 1889.
The
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regular Bombay - Calcutta mail has been running as through carriages since 1870 and as a standalone train since 1897.

2) The Bombay - Punjab mail and the Punjab Limited are DIFFERENT trains.

Evidence - I have attached a few scans here
1) Railway board reports from 1926 and 1927 - These are OFFICIAL Railway board reports that are published every year. You can access them on IR's OFFICIAL document repository - click here

(The picture numbers might be jumbled because of the upload order)

Pictures 1,2 - Notes about introduction of the Imperial mail in 1926.
Pictures 3,4 - Notes about introduction of Punjab Limited and the P&O express (which was regularized as Frontier mail a year later).

Pictures 5,6,7 - Timetables from 1927 of the Imperial mail. Note that it did not have a fixed schedule. Depending on when the mail steamer from England arrived, the train had a different schedule. And it was only a weekly service, not a daily one.

You said - "(Even IR don't have the correct information and they judge Punjab Limited started at 1912)"
This is not true - these documents I've attached are official IR documents available on IR's website. Just because the officials aren't interested in these things and say random stuff doesn't mean that their words should be accepted blindly.

Pictures 8,9 - Timetables from 1927 showing the 3/4 Bombay mail (via JBP) - This was a different train from the Imperial mail and is much older.

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2 Public Posts - Wed Jun 02, 2021

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Jun 02 2021 (12:20)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-37              
"Madras, Poona, Imperial, Howrah Mail (via NGP) started 1st March 1913"

I've attached the 1912 Bradshaw - You can see that all these trains are present in that.

Picture 1,2 - GIP timetable
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from 1912 for the Bombay - Bhusaval-Bina (NE line) section.
You can see the 7 Calcutta mail - this is the present day 12321/22 HWH mail. In picture 2, you can see this train deviating at Itarsi while the Punjab mail and the Delhi express (present day 11057/58 Amritsar express) go on towards Delhi.

The 1 Nagpur mail was the Howrah mail via Nagpur.

Picture 3 - The GIP Punjab mail's schedule in March 1912. There is a hard line indicating the train terminated at Lahore, but if you see the footnotes, there is a note mentioning a through carriage running to Peshawar by the BB&CI train.

Also note that the Punjab mail is running via Ambala.

Pictures 5,6 - Bombay Punjab mail's schedule in 1927. Note that it now ran via Saharanpur (numbered 85/86 on the NWR) and terminated at Lahore.

Picture 7 - Newspaper article from 1934, announcing that the Punjab mail would run via Bathinda and have a change in schedule. Until this point, it was running via Amritsar.

The route via Ferozepore was available since 1899. But it belonged to the BB&CIR railway, so the GIP railway ran the Punjab mail via Amritsar until they came to an agreement in 1934 and diverted the mail via FZR.

Picture 8 - A notification from 1893 about a change in timing for the Bombay Howrah mail via Nagpur. Note that it was running via Asansol as the Tata - HWH section was not yet constructed. It was diverted via Kharagpur from sometime between 1900-1903.

Note that the train was already running for an year at this point. I couldn't dig up the exact newspaper scan. I'll upload that when I find it.

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Jun 02 2021 (12:31)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-38              
What am I diluting? I am just stating facts. I don't care about pride or icons. I just care about getting the facts correct. If others want to think about icons and pride, it's their problem, not mine.

Secondly, I showed evidence that the Punjab mail (from Bombay) is much older than what the railway board is saying. I don't understand how that is 'diluting' the pride of the train.
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Thirdly - A lot of people, including me, went through the pain of collecting timetables and documents from more than 100 years ago and analyzing them and understanding the history of these trains and operations. It would be a bit more encouraging and constructive if people try to research more instead of using the same two links and railway articles to argue against these documents. A lot of internet lore about Indian trains was created at a time when people didn't have access to proper research and relied on stories told by others. Unfortunately, now the internet is full of these stories and there is a lot of misinformation around.

"Steam Loco that time could hardly pull 5-6 Coach & let it be 3 Coach for last leg!!" - Steam locos of that era could comfortably haul up to 10 coaches (or more depending on the railway company). Please remember that the coaches used in then were very different from what we have today.

Many crack trains had long rakes and were run with 2 steam locos up front , including the Punjab mail, which started running with twin locos from March 1st, 1912.

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Jun 02 2021 (12:32)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-39              
Well, most of my timetables are in a rather poor condition. I dread the time when I move houses - It's a nightmare to pack them. :(
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7 Public Posts - Wed Jun 02, 2021

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Jun 03 2021 (09:00)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-47              
Strong claims on your part without evidence -
"2. Yamuna Bridge completed in 1867 (It finished in 1866, 1/2 Mail entered DLI in 1866 with no ferry)"

My evidence - Article dated January 14th, 1867 in the Times of India. I've attached the full page scan and also a zoom in of the specific article - which clearly states that the bridge
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was opened on New year's day, 1867.
Mail did not enter Delhi in 1866 without ferry. The bridge was only opened on January 1st, 1867.

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Jun 03 2021 (09:21)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-48               Past Edits
"How train can run in MAS-Beypore in 1862 when CBE-PDJ was live in 1873!! I guess MAQ & SBC Mail Wiki page been fabricated by you" - Bold claims without any research.

1st mistake - CBE - PTJ was a branch line. Original MAS-Beypore line bypassed CBE. The present day line between Irugur and Podanur was the original line. Irugur - Coimbatore North line was only opened in 1953. Until then all mainline trains didn't touch CBE.
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Proofs -
1) History of Indian railways - published in 1964 (Published by the railway board every year until 1964)
Sankaridurg - Podanur section opened on 12th May, 1862 and Irugur - Coimbatore North opened on 1st January 1953. (Attached scans)

"How can train run in MAS-Beypore in 1862?" - Well, here you go -

Picture 3) The timetable from 1868. Note the train with 1st and 2nd class coaches running to Beypore (Podanur is called Coimbatore in this timetable - the name was changed to Podanur in 1873 - Note other stations also have different names).
Also note that there is no separate train to Bangalore. The Beypore mail halted at Jalarpet in the night and through carriages to Bangalore were attached to the JTJ-SBC train and they continued to Bangalore while the main train went to Beypore.

The MAS-MAQ/MTP (it had two portions which bifurcated at Podanur) mail was sped up in 1929 and renamed as 'Malabar express'. The MTP portion was separated into a separate train called 'Blue Mountain Express'.

Shortly after independence, a new train was started between Calicut and Ernakulam and was named 'Malabar express' on local demand. At this time, the older Malabar express lost its name and was simply called as Mangalore express, before being called Mangalore mail.

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Jun 03 2021 (09:37)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-49              
"Its better to Strike Out 2/3/4/5/6 - " Why?

I have clearly showed evidence for 4 (Bombay Howrah mail via NGP) in my post /blog/post/4974195 with a newspaper scan from 1893. I believe that is more solid evidence than someone simply telling me I am wrong.

Evidence
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for 2 (Gujarat mail) - Attached newspaper article from December 1864 announcing the inaugural of a Bombay Ahmedabad mail train. I've also attached a scan from February 1865 to show that the train was running as of that day. You can look at column 6 in the 2nd picture for the announcement.

Note that the train took an overnight break at Surat as night running of trains was not allowed on the BB&CIR at that time. It was made an overnight train in 1878.

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Jun 03 2021 (10:04)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-50              
Its better to Strike Out 2/3/4/5/6:

Already provided evidence for 2, 4 and 6 with newspaper articles about the inaugural runs and Railway board reports.

For 3 - MAS - CSTM mail
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Attached is a scan from January 6th, 1872 with an announcement that through trains are now allowed over the Krishna bridge at Raichur (Refer to the column 1 - Great Indian Peninsular railway announcement) and that "through booking of 1st, 2nd and 3rd class passengers between Madras and GIP railway (Bombay) and through booking of passengers and goods between Bombay and East Indian railway (Calcutta, ALD) would be opened from 1st January, 1872. This is the pdf file.

The attached picture is from Maclean's Guide to Bombay, published in 1876. And you can see the Madras Bombay mail listed in this. The through service, started in 1872 was operating now - leaving Bombay at 2:30 in the afternoon and reaching Madras at 6:30 AM on the third day.

Again - these are official documents that you can find for yourselves online (some of them) or through university libraries - which tend to be more reliable evidence than just googling for a few minutes.

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Jun 03 2021 (10:06)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-51              
"PS: Its Punjab Mail one "Through Coach" attached to Frontier Mail for LHR-Peshawar instead of Puny Punjab Mail with 1-2 Coach been dragged in by other Lahore/Peshawar bound train as "Through Coach". Your write up mostly sound like the later one!!"

I am sorry, I never talked about prestige or puny or icon or any of that stuff. You are the one bringing up these things. I am just stating dates and sharing documents. If any one wants to interpret that as prestige, they are free to do so.
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Jun 03 2021 (10:17)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-53              
"(No Evidence & for 27 Years Mumbai-ALD-HWH got no takers when Bengal was biggest revenue center with high count of officials who need train for Mail/Passenger Service)"

That was the 1800's sir, not 2021. The population of India back then was less than 20% of what it is today (Population in 1870 was 214 million). There wasn't a great demand for long distance traffic.
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Until the early 1900s, all mainline routes typically had one fast, long distance mail train with through carriages to various destinations and other slow trains.

Again, instead of just accusing me of fabrication , please take the time to research this using historical documents instead of website articles.

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Jun 03 2021 (10:21)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-54              
"2. 1 August 1864: 1/2 Mail HWH-DLI click here click here . 3 Aug 1864: JTJ-SBC Mail (click here Date Match article on 3 Aug)"

The first link you've given is the IRFCA FAQ. IRFCA is the source for all the newspaper and webpage articles that you and many others are sharing. That page was written at a time when proper research material wasn't available. Since then, lot of research has been done and the information there is outdated. The website is in the process of updating those pages.
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If you are really interested in getting the correct facts, please feel free to contact the IRFCA webmaster ( the email ID is on the page ) and ask them if the history FAQ is up-to-date or not.

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7 Public Posts - Thu Jun 03, 2021

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Jun 04 2021 (14:13)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-62              
"Malabar Exp was 29/30 & MAS-MAQ Mail was 1/2. Name & Number both got changed?"

Malabar express was changed to 513/514 Mangalore Express and was changed to 1/2 Mangalore mail. This was because the South Indian Railway (SIR) company which operated the JTJ-MAQ section and all of present day SR did not call any trains as 'mail'. All their trains were named as 'Express'.
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After 1951, SR zone was formed and they changed the numbering convention. The train numbers only became standardized around 1961.

"Mail was always faster to Exp in those Era which you contradict" -
No such rule. Some were faster, some were not. The most famous trains were mails, but different railway companies had different rules. As I mentioned, the South Indian railway did not operate any trains called 'Mails'. Even the famous Dhanushkodi Boat mail was called 'Indo-Ceylon Express'.

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Jun 04 2021 (14:18)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-63              
"'Yout MAS-MAQ Mail Wiki update mention Malabar when extended to MAQ become MAS-MAQ Mail?"

You are confusing things here. The timeline is as below -

1) 1862 - Through service commences between
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Madras and Beypore.
2) 1864 - Through coaches to Bangalore attached to Beypore mail
2) 1873 - Link train to Mettupalayam introduced. Ran combined with the Madras- Beypore mail
3) 1888 - Beypore mail diverted and extended to Calicut
3) 1908 - Bangalore mail made a separate train. Calicut mail extended to Mangalore
4) 1929 - Mangalore and Mettupalayam mails separated in to individual trains and renamed .
The train to Mangalore is named as Malabar express - The train to Mettupalayam is named as Blue Mountain express

5) Around 1951 - A new train between Calicut and Shoranur is introduced. This is named as Malabar express.
The old Malabar express to Mangalore is now named as 'Mangalore express'

6) Late 1950s - The Mangalore express is renamed as Mangalore mail.

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Jun 04 2021 (14:19)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-64              
"MAS-Beypore run dated 1868 shows Beypore train depart 5 PM, stops at every station like Passenger & so does other trains to CBE/SBC (these were no Mail which always got limited stops)!! Clearly JTJ-SBC & MAS-MAQ Mail didnt exist even in 1968!! I am extremely thankful for tthese info!!"

This is 1868. There was only one train on the entire route- There was no scope for premium non-stop trains. This was the 'mail' train.
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Other railway companies also had the same thing.

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Jun 04 2021 (14:48)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4974195-65              
"Ferry Service don't operate at Night But Day which you should have mentioned instead of telling Night Service didnt happen for BB&CIR"

Night services were not operated on some of the railway companies routes due to lack of signalling and train controlling instruments. The larger companies like GIP, MR and EIR setup the infrastructure early on, while other companies took some time to catch up.
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Ferries and boats had been operating in night times for centuries, there was no problem in running them in the nights.

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1 Public Posts - Fri Jun 04, 2021

1 Public Posts - Wed Aug 04, 2021
General Travel
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Jun 04 2021 (12:59)  
Asis~
Asis~   992 blog posts
Entry# 4976933              
What are the Train to be extend to Srinagar/ Baramula after completion of USBRL Project.
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11 Public Posts - Fri Jun 04, 2021

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Jun 04 2021 (14:04)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4976933-12              
Mostly, an A/C train to Delhi (Rajdhani or Shri Shakti) and may be weekly A/C trains to Howrah or Bombay, along with some DEMU trains to Jammu.

Non-A/C coaches (with open windows) cannot be operated on the Baramulla line during winters. The DEMUs currently running there have heating arrangements within the coaches, which are not present in any of the regular rolling stock in the rest of the country.
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So, most of the regular trains terminating at SVDK or Jammu like Andaman, Himsagar, USK etc will most probably not be extended.

The traffic capacity on the line is also not high enough to accommodate all the trains currently terminating at SVDK, so it is likely that we will not see too many trains on the route.

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2 Public Posts - Sat Nov 11, 2023
General Travel
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Jun 03 2021 (08:27)   13005/Howrah - Amritsar Mail (PT) | JAJ/Jhajha (4 PFs)
KhagariaJn^~
KhagariaJn^~   63459 blog posts
Entry# 4975756            Tags   Past Edits
1 compliments
ЁЯе│ЁЯе│ЁЯе│ЁЯе│ЁЯе│ЁЯе│ЁЯдйЁЯе│
Completed 109 yrs journy in indian railway
Our Punjab Mail aka HWH ASR Mail on 01 june
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2 Public Posts - Thu Jun 03, 2021

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Jun 03 2021 (08:48)
TheMadrasMail~
TheMadrasMail~   6349 blog posts
Re# 4975756-3              
No. It is not.
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5 Public Posts - Thu Jun 03, 2021
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